I (27F) have a strange living situation. I live with a family (Chris, 65M, Danielle, 59F, and their daughter) and do household chores in exchange for rent. I've lived here for 19 months; it's mostly smooth sailing. I work full-time and am applying to law school.
Danielle has some issues with boundaries (she doesn't understand why she can’t enter my room w/o permission, for example), and I know it's both due to age differences and the fact that they allow me to live in their house for free. I have to be very careful when enforcing boundaries.
Yesterday, I made dinner for everyone after a full day of chores. Around 10 pm, as I was finishing the dishes, Danielle told me I needed to steam clean the carpet in the living room because the cats had peed all over it. I did, and as I was putting the steam cleaner away, Danielle entered and said she wanted me to do another room.
Because it was 10:30 at this point and I still wanted to work on an application before bed, I politely but firmly said, "I'm not going to do that." I probably should have said, "I'll do it tomorrow," but I was exhausted, so I just said no. I put the machine away, submitted my application, and went to bed.
Tonight, as I was finishing up my meal prep for the week, Danielle cornered me in the kitchen. "I don't want to fight about this," she said, "But I wanted to mention something. Last night when you told me you weren't going to clean the other room, I found it rude. You should be careful when you say things like that at work so that you don't get fired."
I was floored. I snapped, "Danielle, you haven't had a job since before I was born. You don't get to give me advice about how to act in the workplace." Danielle rolled her eyes and huffed, "See, I didn't want to fight about this," and walked out of the room. I called after her, "Then maybe don't bring it up?!?" Danielle hasn't spoken to me since, and I don't know what's coming.
For context, Danielle has only had one job in her whole life, from age 22 to age 25. After that, she quit to raise kids. I grew up very poor. I have been working since I was 14 and supporting myself since I turned 18. They offered to start our arrangement in 2023 because they needed help around the house and I was struggling financially.
As for Danielle's work advice, I currently work as a Regional Manager at a small firm. Not only is her advice outdated, but I can't take it. I'm a people manager; a lot of my day-to-day job involves being polite but unyielding. I think she was frustrated by my setting a boundary and that's why she brought it up.
I know part of my frustration is that I feel powerless to protest most of the time. I will be moving out in August of this year when I go to law school (hopefully!), and my goal is just to make it until then. I'm also really frustrated that Danielle felt like she could say whatever she wanted and then walk away as if I had no right to feel anything. AITA for what I said?
LadyUlali wrote:
INFO: Do you have a rental agreement IN WRITING? Work exchange needs to be clearly defined, including but not limited to: hours, availability, no contact places/times, tasks, etc. Someone who’s demanding you steam clean 2 rooms at 10:30pm is highly suspect.
‘Chores’ is too often seen as ‘women’s work’, aka UNDERVALUED & UNPAID Invisible Labour. However, Invisible Labour done by women is incredibly expensive both in cost & time, aka you may well be doing more than would cover the cost of your rent. Also, I’m inferring from your post that you’re most likely downplaying their ‘requests’.
OP responded:
There is no agreement in writing. I have tried to bring this up on previous occasions because of Danielle's difficulty with boundaries and the sheer amount of work that I do, but it is not taken well. Danielle and Chris are very insistent that I am NOT their tenant and that they are NOT my landlords; I am their "guest."
Danielle is also very insistent that she does not want to be called my boss or supervisor in any capacity. To answer other comments here as well, my current position does not pay enough for me to live on my own.
I realize that the situation is probably predatory, but because there are only eight months left of this, I plan to just stick it out. It has saved me a lot of money, and I'm thankful for that.
Due-Signature-3311 wrote:
YTA. Not for saying no, but for how you said it. You were not polite. Also, Danielle is not your housemate, she and her husband are your landlords/bosses. You may not be paying rent, but you are paying by being live in help.
So, when you told Danielle "I won't be doing that", instead of I'll do it tomorrow. You were rude......to your boss. Also, her advice wasn't outdated, if your spoke to your supervisor at your job that way, there would definitely be a follow up conversation about your choice of words.
OP responded:
Danielle and Chris are very insistent that I am not their employee or tenant and that they are not my bosses or landlords; I am their "guest," and they are doing this "out of the goodness of their hearts."
anoncommenter wrote:
Definitely NTA and good for you. May I ask how you came to live with this family though? Are they related? Why are you bothering with all this weird ass shit and her bossing you around?
OP responded:
They're actually my best friend's parents. He suggested the arrangement because he knew I needed help; when I moved in I was a teacher and struggling to afford a studio apartment. Since I moved in, I changed careers and decided I wanted to pursue law school. I took the LSAT three times last year on top of all this.
I can count on one hand the number of times I've refused a request - I've bleached the showers after midnight, rose at 5am to make requested meals before work, and other things like that without protesting. I see this as an opportunity to make my life better in the long-term while surviving short-term.
I just wanted to say no this time because, truthfully, I physically couldn't handle fulfilling the request. Danielle was insistent it had to be done immediately because they wanted to go to bed at 11pm but I just couldn't do it.
I was voted TA, which I understand. What I do adds up to about $2000 per month if you go by the standard of $20/hr, or about 100 hours/month. Most of those hours are concentrated on weekends and 2-3 evenings per week (I make enough food that there are leftovers so I can have a couple of nights off). Included in those hours is a lot of care for their adult daughter who lives with us and is disabled.
If I babysit the house pets while the housemates go on vacation, which happens a lot, I charge a $20/day. We have two dogs, three cats, a gecko, and some fish. One of the cats is mine; this is why I cleaned the carpet without protest, because it’s just as likely the piss was his as any of the other cats. I’ve said no to requests three times in 19 months, and each time has been met with pushback like this.
All three were due to the time of night they were asked. A lot have called this a form of modern-day slavery, and I see where you’re coming from. I’ve been fine with the situation remaining largely undefined because even when I protest at chores, I haven’t been threatened with “eviction.”
I entered into this situation at a time when I was overwhelmed and desperate. It might be predatory, but it was the best opportunity I had. I could have protected myself better going in. As to why I stay in it, it’s because there’s an end date in sight and it will set me up well to keep funneling money into savings for the next few months.
If I were “evicted,” it would suck but I would be fine. It’s not ideal but it works. I recognize that I should have worded my response better than I did at the time. However, I do want to push back on the idea that I have to do everything they say because they own the house.
If a boss demands overtime from me that’s not previously agreed on, I am allowed to say no, and I have done it many times without affecting my employment whatsoever. In fact, my current boss, who I’ve done this with the most (often using the same wording as here), wrote me an excellent letter of recommendation for law school.
Times have changed since the 1980’s, and saying no to bad demands is becoming more and more acceptable. What she meant when she said, "You should be careful when you say things like that at work," was that I shouldn't be assertive at all in a situation where I am a subordinate, which I very much think is outdated advice.
I was not invalidating the difficult work of raising a family that Danielle did. I would not dream of offering someone else parenting advice because I haven’t been in their shoes. Hypothetically, if the last time I had raised a child was 30 years ago, I also wouldn’t give advice on raising a kid in the iPad generation.
Danielle should not be doing the same to me about work. She is not my professional boss. She has never worked in my field. She knows that she is not my landlady either; if she were, there would be a whole lot of rules she would need to respect that she doesn’t want to (such as entering my room without notice).
Again, because I am getting some benefit from the situation, I don’t and won’t threaten legal action here, because I have enough documentation to protect myself. In addition, Chris, Danielle, and I all have personal stakes involved in this going well – we have a ton of mutual friends, one of whom is their son and my best friend.
Danielle and Chris have some chronic illnesses that make housework hard for them, so they are also getting a lot out of this situation. I plan to apologize and smooth things over. I will follow much of the advice mentioned here about protecting myself better moving forward.
Perhaps naively, I hope this will end well. Danielle and I actually get along very well most of the time; we don't hate each other by any means, and we both ultimately want to see the other happy. That's why this has worked for so long. To everyone who says that this situation proves I don’t have what it takes to be a lawyer, don’t worry—you will probably never be my client.
UPDATE: First, as an aside, a lot of the comments here missed the point. Danielle was not angry with me for refusing to do an additional chore at 10:30pm; that was not the issue. Even by the most generous of understandings, demanding additional overtime work at the end of a 14-hour shift is unreasonable, and she knew that.
During our follow-up discussion, she added a detail I had totally forgotten about – the second room in question has a large potted Fiddle-Leaf Fig tree in it, and in order to steam clean the additional room, the tree needs to be moved. Neither she or I were able to move it after multiple attempts, so at that point I said, “Until Chris and I can figure out a way to move this, the steam cleaning will have to wait.
I know you want it done tonight, but I will not be doing that.” Very important context that I missed adding when I was angry. The issue in question was the exchange the next day. As to how I responded the second day when she came to confront me on my wording, for that, I understand now that I was absolutely TA.
As one of my close friends put it to me, “Those are inside thoughts.” My context about her work history was also unnecessary and irrelevant. Last night, I approached Danielle and opened the conversation with a profuse apology. No qualifiers, no protests, just that I was rude during our kitchen conversation and I needed to apologize.
She in turn immediately apologized for her incredibly poor introduction to the follow-up conversation and for cornering me in the kitchen while I was otherwise occupied instead of meeting with me at a more neutral time. Chris then joined us and we had an extensive conversation. During the conversation, I asked them to define how they view our arrangement.
They were immediately very clear that they don’t see me as a tenant, employee, or servant. I pointed out that if that is how they want to view things, then I need to be free to say no extra requests.
They were receptive to this. I also pointed out that in our state, I could either be considered a tenant or a live-in domestic worker, but due to the length of time I’ve resided here and the conditions in place, I am definitely not considered just a guest.
They did get offended that I see our relationship as fundamentally a transaction, which I found kind of funny, because while they have the freedom to frame it in their minds as “we’re helping this person out and she’s helping us out,” it’s wise for me to see it differently. I do have obligations to them and my life has substantially larger implications should this not work out.
In the end, they agreed that because they aren’t landlords and I am not their employee (in their minds), I should be receiving more freedom than I have been given. Chris and Danielle have chronic illnesses that make most of the work I do very difficult for them, including a lot of the care I provide for their adult daughter who lives with us.
We then outlined (again) exactly what my responsibilities are and what they’re not. Finally, to my surprise, they apologized for previous invasions of privacy and agreed that we would put a lock on my room door. It is an interior lock only so I can’t lock it while I’m gone, but I am fine with the progress.
I was never threatened with eviction or anything like that; people can be emotionally mature enough to talk through issues instead of immediately pulling a metaphorical trigger, which is what happened here.
After the conversation, I typed out a long email detailing the terms of my living here as it currently stands and had them send a confirmation in reply. While it is not officially a lease, it is something in writing outlining responsibilities that was agreed to by all parties. We agreed that my monthly hours would be reduced to 80 instead of the roughly 100 I have been doing.
If the value of that is calculated according to the federal minimum wage, that’s a value of $580 every four weeks, which is more than most rooms-for-rent are in our area. Of course, the labor I do is somewhat skilled and has a market value of at least double, but I used the federal minimum wage for the sake of argument.
I also established that the latest I would be available for housework is 9:30pm, barring some form of emergency, and if a task absolutely requires going past that time, I will be taking that time back on a different day. I know that I will laugh at this in Contracts class in the future, but for now, I’m fine with what it is.
Like I said in a comment, it’s not ideal but it works. I’m not in a position where I desperately need this anymore, but I’m going to stay here until August because being able to funnel what otherwise would be paid in rent into savings is doing wonders to set me up for the future.
To everyone that commented something along the lines of “You have to do everything she says” or “You’re the help” or “You’re entitled,” I encourage you to think about that perspective more.
Employees, household help, and any people in a subordinate position are still very much an individual and deserving of basic respect to their space, their time, and their person. No laws, no matter how extensive, take those basic rights away.
Also, if you said it was my “fault” for being in the situation in the first place, kick rocks. We are all working through our own situations where we pick the best option available even if it isn’t perfect. That’s not weakness or stupidity, that’s life.
Stopthebanging wrote:
This whole situation is exhausting obv but if minimum wages were actually living wages and rent was actually controlled to be affordable we wouldn't see nearly so many insane US housing stories on here 🤷♀️ these are the kind of weird arrangements you get when people are living on the margins to get by.
apatosaures_ajax wrote:
I’m kind of floored by the fact that the majority of people were saying YTA and not overwhelmingly pointing out just how much these people are taking advantage of her.
beachpellini wrote:
I have also been in living situations like this (the one right now is/was kind of similar but thank god they have the decency to respect my privacy), and let me tell you, that balance beam routine of trying to maintain boundaries while also not offending the people who could very well make or break your living situation? Suuuuuuucks. (Yeah, yeah, I know, "move out" - the economy, bruh.)
Natural_Garbage7674 wrote:
The fact is that it sounds like the work OP is doing isn't minimum wage work (household management of a dwelling of 3 adults with varying levels of disability). And the hours she's working would mean more than one person would need to be employed for the work.
Basically, there's no way that any service being paid $2000 per month is cleaning up cat pee at 10pm. Just because OP lives in the house, does not change the fact they're being taken advantage of.
What really sucks is that OP is still stuck. She's tied her living situation to her work when she was desperate, but now she's more stable she can't get out because she's being used by people who think they're the good guys.