'AITA? Got back from a stressful 'vacation' with my wife and her family. Felt like a tipping point, and thinking about leaving.' UPDATED
"AITA? Got back from a stressful 'vacation' with my wife and her family. Felt like a tipping point, and thinking about leaving."
Our son is college aged, and he backed out of this trip at the last second. I should have done the same. He sent on vacation with them last year, and had a bad time...BUT my wife played up the fact that she gets so few vacation days and she wanted to spend quality time with me alone. So I went.
Long drive, we get there. It's already a bit tense because it's a very, very full house (my wife has a lot of sisters and brothers and their significant others). I like my wife's family, her brothers are funny and smart and nice.
Her sisters are all very smart and nice individually, though together it becomes something else. My wife is especially close with her sister who lives a block away from us, and has a baby with her husband (wife's brother-in-law).
I used to get along with the Sister, and liked her very much. But over the past few years the sister became more meddling and negative toward me. My wife doesn't see a problem with it, she thinks her sister just wants the best for her.
But even my Son has noted that the sister is pretty negative toward me, and that she's done and said things that were out of line...
(EDIT: Because it was confusing, she has two sisters. The one with the baby who lives near us is closest in age)
When we get there, I ask if there is a quiet corner to use, as I have to teach online. This is immediately met with some consternation especially from my wife's very corporate HR brother-in-law (the new father), who rolls his eyes.
My wife makes a bee-line to her sister and her baby, she spends the entire day with her sister, brother-in-law and baby. The baby is very cute, and my wife LOVES being an Aunt.
I had to teach and do grading, which I was able to do in the basement thanks to one of my wife's brothers who creates a space for me to work, so I made use of my time. At night I hung out with the brothers and their GFs, which was fun. My wife eventually comes to bed at 3am and passes out.
The rental is a beautiful house, with stunning views. But, it's remote, and the town or beach isn't walkable. To add to that, my wife's Brother-in-Law keeps parking his way-too-big SUV in the bottom of the driveway in such a way that no one can get out without him first making a big deal of having to move it, and every time he moves it, he parks it right back in the same position.
I used to like the BIL a lot before this trip. The BIL is a nice, good looking, very well-dressed guy, comes from a well-to-do family, and makes good money. I was really happy when they (the BIL and sister) first got together. I was hoping he'd become a friend... He makes a good impression and I liked him when I initially met him, though efforts to try to get to know him better, or befriend him have stalled.
He's uninterested in having any conversations with me or the brothers. I tried to make conversation with him a few times, but he seemed totally uninterested, he'd respond with a one word mumble and then go back to preening in the middle of the room. I didn't realize how much of a persona non grata I've become until this week. He was nice in the past, but this week he came across as self-absorbed and shallow*
EDIT: *This is just how I felt in that moment, but to be fair they are new parents, so it comes with the territory. When you're a new parent you're the center of the world in a way....Also, I'm probably projecting. They were cold to me because they are on my wife's side, which is whatever.
The days went on like that, at no point did I spend any time with my wife - not even at dinner, where she sat next to the baby, the BIL and sister of course. And again, the baby is really cute. I get it. I suggested a few activities (kayaking, walks) which she ignored.
Fine, it's he vacation. I felt duped for coming, but I want her to have a good time, it's awesome that she is so close to her sister and her husband and baby, and I had grading to do so I keep myself busy.
That night, my wife's brothers and I were watching TV in the basement while my wife and the sisters and BIL were all upstairs. I get talking to one of the brother's GF's who is very astute.
And she picks up on the tension, this is her first time meeting everyone, and she artfully points out (I can't remember her exact phrasing) that the sisters and BIL come across cold and self-absorbed. I mention that new parents are often in their own world, for obvious reasons, the baby has to be the center of that universe.
But she's like, sure, (she mentions she has a lot of brothers and sisters too), but they almost go out of their way to be closed off and cliquish, and was worried they didn't like her. I assured her that wasn't the case, that's just how they are and they're all circling the wagons around the sister's baby, so to speak.
We continue to talk, and somehow the topic of my wife calling the shots comes up, kind of an ongoing joke (the brothers like to tease me - I've been in the family for 20+ years and I really like the brothers).
I joke that I suffer from a lot of analysis paralysis, so my wife making the decisions for us (like where we live, how we spend our time, what we eat etc.) is really helpful for me. The GF jokes, "yeah, she definitely has a tyrannical streak." The brothers laugh. I was kind of struck by this, because it's kind of true. Wife eventually comes to bed after I've fallen asleep several hours later.
LAST DAY: The next morning the Brothers leave right after breakfast. My wife and I had agreed to leave on Friday, as I had to get back. I start packing up, and my wife freaks out. She's decided we should stay another day. I explain I can't, but I can leave later in the day as I told her parents I would go for a bike ride with them.
She gets really angry and calls me selfish, and tells me she has so few vacation days and she should get to say when we go back. To that I say she can take the car if she'll drive me to a train station later, or she can go home with her parents or sister (they're all going to the same place). She tries to keep the argument going but I walk away and ignore.
This pisses her off. She starts following me around the house yelling at me, calling me selfish, telling me it's her vacation and she makes more money than I do, and that she'll never have sex with me again.
At this point, I feel like I'm starting to have a panic attack. I wanted to leave on the spot. Her sister and Brother-in-law then comfort and console her, and offer to take her back Sunday (as I mentioned, they live in our same neighborhood).
So at that point, the yelling is over and she goes back to ignoring me and hanging out with them. But I'm still very anxious, and feel kind of humiliated. Then the BIL took her to the beach in the SUV.
I calm down, and as promised I go on a really nice bike ride with her parents, which actually was great and calmed me down a great deal. I get back and say my goodbyes, the parents hug me goodbye, my wife and her sister and BIL are doing their own thing and ignore me. So I just left.
I got stuck in a ton of traffic on the way back and had a lot of time to think. I ruminated over the argument (which is very one-sided, basically me just getting yelled at in front of everyone). I don't want to live like that, I don't want to feel bad for being a teacher, our son is in college, I don't need this.
This felt like a tipping point to me. No marriage is perfect, and we've had our issues in the past (including issues caused by her sister meddling). But this trip kind of solidified we're headed toward different futures. I don't want to be treated like a chauffer or a doormat.
I went on this trip, even though it didn't fit in my work schedule, because she implored me to go and claimed she wanted to spend some quality time together. I now realize I was just a convenient driver and when I tried to stick to my own schedule, the hammer came down.
I love my wife, and I am still in love with her. I have zero interest in dating anyone, or even getting divorced. BUT I don't like who she is around these people, and I don't want to orient my life around them. I would never tell her not to spend time with her sister or BIL, and it's awesome she loves being an Aunt.
I'm considering moving out. Of course, money is a factor and I can't afford much right now. I'm researching rooms to rent in shared apartments about an hour away, which would be about what I could afford while also paying my half of our current place. I'm also considering filing a separation agreement. I don't want to get divorced, but I think some space would be healthy. AIO?
*UPDATE*
Writing this out and responding to a lot of your comments has been really cathartic, and many of the comments have observed/pointed things out that I didn’t previously comprehend.
I also really appreciate the empathy and understanding and your own perspectives. I wanted to respond to some questions & comments generally:
"One-sided"
A number of commenters have pointed out that I’m being way too one-sided. True. If I’m honest with myself, a lot of their complaints about me are legitimate. I’m very messy/disorganized.
Without doxxing myself too much, I’m what the kids call ‘neurodivergent’ and I have a bad anxiety condition. Part of the root of my anxiety relates back to an illness I had many years ago (before I met my wife).
I almost died, and definitely still have some PTSD. This anxiety has definitely contributed to my inability to make decisions (“analysis paralysis”) and other, regrettable habits and traits. I also have student debt (one of my great regrets). I don’t make a lot of money as a teacher. I’m not blameless here.
"Baby Fever"
A number of you have insightfully pointed out that she has “baby fever,” which is amplified by the empty nest of our son moving out. She loves being an Aunt.
I also think she is angry at me, and resentful, for us not having another baby. Without getting into it, we had a couple of miscarriages that were tough on her (years ago, not recent), and I wasn't as supportive emotionally as I should have been.
I always thought we would have another, but after the last miscarriage she was done trying (at least with me). She has said in past arguments that if I had been more financially responsible, we would have had another child. I will always feel awful about that.
Must have done something for them to hate me
A few of you have accused me of covering up or neglecting to include whatever it is I did to “make them [my wife and her family] hate me.” Hate is a strong word, I think resentment/dislike is more accurate.
I also don’t think her entire family dislikes me. I really like her brothers and her youngest sister, and I don't think they dislike me. I think her Dad also likes me as a person, but believes I’m unsuccessful (more on this below). My wife’s sister and MIL and BIL are the only ones that actively dislike me, but I think that’s mostly because of what my wife has told them about me.*
*I mentioned part of the reason my Son didn’t want to go on this vacation is that he had a bad experience on a vacation with them in the past (that I did not go on). One of the things is that my wife’s sister and MIL made jokes about me being unsuccessful.
They also made comments to my son, as he was looking ahead to college, that he needs to be strategic about his major because he doesn’t “want to wind up like me.” My son got upset at that and had an argument with them.
Her sister and MIL have also made comments, sometimes even in front of me or my son, about how guys my wife knew in high school, including one ex-bf, who are doing so well financially. A couple years ago, the Mom was drinking and made a comment over xmas - “imagine if you had married [ex] instead.”
I think in their family, there are really only two suitable career paths: Something high paying and corporate (like finance, Corporate, HR or leadership, etc.), and lawyer.
"Why did she suddenly change her mind about you? Something must have happened"
A while back I had an admin job that had a fancy title, but was actually a soul-crushing awful job and I hated it. I completely burned out on it during the pandemic and got depressed and left the role to go back to teaching when the pandemic ended.
I talked to my wife before making the decision, she told me not to do it. I hung on for a few more months, but I ended up doing it anyway.. My wife was furious. I thought, with time, things would go back to how they were.
Now I realize this was probably a line in the sand that I’ve been in denial about. She lost esteem and respect for me, and it’s never come back. I think in her mind, as an admin, I was on a “path” to “real success,” and I messed it up.
"No affair"
A lot of comments are suggesting I’m blind or in denial for not seeing that she’s having an affair with the BIL. I am very confident she’s not having an affair with the BIL. She LOVES her sister, and she would never, ever do that to her.
More accurately (and others have pointed this out), deep down she wants what her sister has: a baby and a husband more like the BIL (financially successful, organized, corporate, etc.).
My guess is this is exactly what is going to happen. Maybe there's already some kind of emotional affair with someone already happening, idk, I don't check her phone or anything like that.
"Leave now. Divorce Now"
Many of you are telling me to leave right now and file for divorce, and many of you have (rightly) pointed out I'm clueless about this stuff (divorce, etc.). If she wants a divorce, I want to make it as painless as possible for myself, my son and her.
I don't care if I "lose" the divorce. All I have is my salary, my pension, and student debt. Most importantly, I have a good relationship with my son and I love my cat. If the price for being amicable is she gets half of all my stuff and I have to live with a roommate, fine. I would much rather "lose the divorce" and stay on good terms with the love of my life and the mother of my son.
Finding another partner
I am really happy to read all of the responses from people who went through similar things who have found loving partnerships on the other side. That’s awesome. However, this is not on my radar, and it’s not a goal.
I am not trying to find anyone, I am not hoping to date anyone. I am not going to date, and I have absolutely no interest in dating. I’m never, ever, getting on any of those apps lol.
I know that my wife is the love of my life. I've been with her for over 23 years (married for over 20). She is beautiful, she is amazing and successful, and she was my one. We had a lot of happiness over the last 20 years and while I’m really sad about what’s going on now, I know I’ve been really lucky too.
Yes, I know the romantic partnership is over, and yes, I know she doesn’t respect me right now. I know what I have to do (or to take steps to do). But I hope on the other side of this we can remain friends at minimum. I have absolutely no interest in pursuing any other romantic relationship. This is/was my one and only marriage.
Here is what readers had to say in response to the OP’s initial post:
Like you mentioned, it seems like this is a culmination of many things leading to this tipping point. This single event may not be such a big deal as a standalone, but in addition to other things you're feeling, it can feel much bigger. I think your feelings are valid.
Does your wife even like you?
If this is her usual behavior, I would have walked a long time ago.
I think you have a lot of valid points here, and separation seems like the smartest way to go. If you don’t want to divorce, then separating may demonstrate to your wife that the fact that she makes more money doesn’t mean she is “in charge” of you or your relationship, as well as letting her know you won’t be treated like this.
A marriage is supposed to be a partnership, and it seems like you give and give and she wants to take and take, there is no compromising.
The next day, the OP returned with an update.
After the back and forth and fireworks, we ended up having a productive conversation* yesterday and I think we both have a sense of a plan (or 'concept of a plan,' as they say) moving forward. It's a lot to take in all at once, I have to find a cheap room, I'm starting therapy, we're going to do counseling and then likely mediation, etc.
Not the best timing ever because the semester starts so soon and our son moves out this week and we're both swamped, exhausted, stressed and sad. But I also got to spend most of the afternoon with my son yesterday which was great (and important). My wife said I could stay overnight, but I stayed at a friends for obvious reasons.
I need to emphasize this, again. My wife is a good person, and she isn't a villain. She's an amazing, beautiful, successful woman and a great mother. She's fed up with me and let it out in an inappropriate way.
There is no reason to demonize her, and I regret if I gave that impression. I will always love her, she will always be the love of my life. We had a lot of good years (I thought). Nothing good is going to come from being angry or bitter.
Nothing good is going to come from trying to soak or ruin or punish the mother of my son. I'm not going to war with her. I will stand up for myself, but I'm not going to war... And I also need to learn from what happened, and grow, and that isn't going to happen if I don't own up to my role in all of this.
*I really tried to listen. I didn't agree with everything she said. As many of you insightfully predicted/pointed out, this outburst didn't come out of nowhere. There's a long litany of things I've done or didn't do.
Frustrations have been building, she felt financially insecure with me for years, in addition to lots of other annoying or careless things I've done or not done that caused stress. I had been ignorant to it. I did not live up to the expectation of the partner she wanted. I didn't want to see it. And so the frustrations festered and then finally exploded.
I also think (though this is maybe a moot point now) she saw how some of her family members were living, more financially well off, having kids, taking vacations, etc. and this might have been a trigger especially as it coincides with our son moving out and dealing with the reality of an empty nest.
She has an opportunity to be an important part of her sister's new and growing family, and that's awesome and will hopefully be a source of happiness for all of them. If you had asked me a month ago about my marriage, I would have said I had the best marriage. Turns out I had a huge, impending breakup-sized blind-spot. Learn from my mistakes.
Bottom line It's just a sad thing right now. There's a lot to do, my concentration is shot and I feel overwhelmed. BUT I do have a gameplan starting with therapy and other appointments. I need to get myself right. I don't feel well right now. She deserves better and she deserves to be happy. I deserve to be happy, or at least not to feel like garbage.
Anyway, thanks again for all the constructive feedback. Many of you helped me to recognize my own blind-spots and shortcomings. I will try to update the thread again in a few days, but when the semester starts I'm going to get off all social media for my own mental health.
EDIT: I'll also add, I do not want to give the impression that her family is in any way the cause of this. They are (mostly) good people, and it's her family, they should have her back. Of course they're gonna take her side, that's appropriate. I felt hurt, so I subconsciously projected a lot of malice onto thoughtless behaviors.
The last thread is getting too long, so I wanted to write a quick update. A few hours ago I texted and asked if we could find a time to have a conversation. I don't want things nuclear because I want to see my son tomorrow. My wife apparently had already blocked me, so I wrote the following in an email:
"I've expressed to you many times I deeply regret some of my professional, academic and financial decisions. I know these decisions have caused stress for you, and I know you feel I've let you down.
Your feelings are valid. I haven't lived up to the partner or person you hoped I would be. I have work to do on myself. I won't get into it right now, but this past week was hard for me. I was blindsided, and I'm still trying to process all of that.
That said, I can see that this has been a long time coming and I know that you've had legitimate and long simmering frustrations with me. I get it. Please believe me, I think I know more than you realize. And however frustrated you are with me, please understand I am frustrated with myself.
I hope you know you can be honest with me, and I really wish you would be. Whatever happened, or is happening, you can tell me. I will listen. You didn't have to humiliate me like that.
Yes I have disappointed you, and I can understand and accept change. I will cooperate. But I didn't deserve to be humiliated. I'm angry and I'm hurt, but I'm not going to go to war with you. You deserve to be happy. We have to have a conversation, and we should probably have that conversation in front of a third party if that makes you feel more comfortable."
For some reason, this made her irate. She called me immediately screaming at me. I hung up. She texted that she was changing the locks if I didn't call her back and I wouldn't be allowed to see my son before he leaves for college (I can just meet him someplace else, so I'm not worried).
I pick up the phone, she's screaming that I'm making things up (I haven't even really said or accused her of anything). I ask if nothing happened in [vacation spot], why is she so upset? She screams I'm lying.
I ask about what? She screams some more. I can't get three words in because she's screeching and calling me names. I hang up. She writes an email that "I'm making stuff up." Then another. Then another saying: "Seriously f'ing call me. I need to hear what you think I did because I honestly have no clue." And another saying she was going to call my Dad.
I wrote:
"You screamed at me the entire phone call. I could not get three words out without you screeching. And at no point in that phone call did you say a single factual thing, including lying about the length of a completely polite and inoffensive email.
Reflect on this: if nothing happened, if you didn't do anything, if you have no idea why I might be upset, then why are you this irate? Why are you threatening me? Why are you calling me names?
Why are you lying so feverishly? If nothing happened, how can nothing elicit this kind of reaction? If nothing happened, then let nothing go. The temperature needs to come down. You need to chill out. We both have responsibilities. I'm not talking to you again without a mediator present. I will stay with a friend until that can happen."
Then she wrote the following: "I'm upset because I've wasted my life being married to someone who is this much of an AH. I am upset because it's because of you I only had one child, could never afford to buy myself anything nice and was worried about money almost constantly for nineteen years. It makes me feel like I threw my FING life away."
This one hurt. I cried. But then I felt pretty liberated. If you read any of my thread the other day, this is precisely what I realized in [vacation spot]. She resents me because I'm financially unsuccessful (a teacher).
My response (I think this is pretty good):
If I were to imagine what you really, truly thought about me, deep in your heart, I would have come close to this, but it wouldn't have been this cruel. But I'm glad you put it in writing.
And for the record, I didn't cause your miscarriages. I'm sorry they happened, and I'm heartbroken we didn't have another child. [son's name] is the greatest kid, we got really lucky with him. BUT I am not the reason you had miscarriages. I'm not. I did not cause your miscarriages.
I'm sorry you feel I was such a terrible husband, I know I've been a disappointment to you. But this is not only an insanely terrible thing to continuously accuse someone of, it's also irreconcilable. And by the way, I'm still fertile. I was never the problem.
Again, I'm really sorry you felt so financially insecure with me. I'm sorry you feel I let you down financially. I already said all of this in my earlier email, by the way. You know, the one which you are "so upset about" (because nothing happened in [location], right? right??) ...
I did not realize how important money was to you, and I'm sorry my professional goals didn't align with the lifestyle you wanted and deserved. And you do deserve it, you're smart and successful.
I also didn't realize how deeply you resented me until this past week. I wish you had told me earlier. Maybe you were trying to tell me in different ways. No one should live with someone they resent and despise. Message heard.
I'm sorry you feel you wasted your time with me. I'm sorry I don't have a shizzlicking corporate HR paycheck. But for the record I thought we had some really, really good years. You were the love of my life and I treated you like the love of my life. I've never once cheated. I've never once betrayed you or humiliated you...
I know I'm a professional failure in your eyes and your family's eyes, and that is what it is, but for the record I've always had a job, and I always will. I'll teach until I die, but I'll never be rich.
And my life has added value to society, and that's something you can never say about any of the men you crush on and admire. I hope you get exactly what you want. You need to find someone more aligned with your values. I do not share them, and I never will.
Good luck.
She's trying to walk it back now, but I'm not engaging. I'm glad she said what she said and put it in writing. I'm going to contact a lawyer in the morning.
Quick UPDATE: After the exchange of nasty emails, texts and phone calls she asked to talk again on the phone. She was a lot calmer, listened, and apologized for her behavior. I made it clear I needed space, was going to look for a room, and agreed to counseling.
But, then this morning I woke up to a lot of texts saying that I had "made it all up" and that she never said/did the things I "hallucinated" she did. She claims I was tired and misinterpreted. And she wants me to come home lol.
I wrote back that this is a non-starter for me. I know what happened, and what I experienced, and she even put her feelings in writing! It's one thing if she admits it, takes accountability, and we agree to work together with a counselor toward whatever happens next (peaceful cooperative separation, divorce, whatever).
But if she's going to pretend nothing happened, then nothing will change, and that means I have to GTFO for good. I'm reaching out to a family lawyer to set up a consultation this morning and staying with friends again tonight.
EDIT:
Some of you are claiming I accused her of having an affair. I never accused her of having an affair. If you read my last thread, I explicitly said I don't think she's having an affair.
What I was referring/responding to in my email was her behavior toward me (screaming at me in front of her family, treating me like garbage the entire time, etc.) Many of you are saying I, in fact, did cause her miscarriages. I did not. I'm not going to go into it.
Also, it was "below the belt" to bring it up, I feel bad for that. But I was responding to the accusation that I am "the sole reason she only had 1 child" and her belief that my lack of financial success caused her to have the miscarriages.
That was all that I meant, but I phrased it poorly. I am getting criticized for both apologizing for my past mistakes/disappointments AND also getting criticized for making her out to be the villain. She isn't the villain.
I am 100% responsible for the role I played in all of this. I am not innocent. She has many valid reasons to be frustrated with me, I've tried to explain some of them but of course I'm biased. I was in denial about the state of our relationship, I suppressed a lot and actively ignored a lot.
Things festered, then exploded this week. I should never have gone on that vacation, that was so stupid. A lot of it is on me. No one is innocent here, I do feel badly for the ways I've let her down as a husband. I also feel terrible that she didn't feel secure enough with me to want another child together. It's time for both of us to move forward.
Here is what readers had to say in response to the OP’s update:
Dude, I'm glad you are making the moves to get out of this relationship... But you have got to get a therapist and begin working on your self-confidence ASAP. I wish you the best of luck moving forward but I mean it when I say you need a therapist to work on the absolute number this person has done to your self-esteem.
I have a deep worry that you will not be able to get out from under her tyrannical rule with the tone with which you've approached her thus far. Please, however you would want your son to stand up to someone he was married to treating him like this, do that. Best of luck.
I have to agree wholeheartedly with this comment, the sheer number of times you apologize in your email to her, it's almost as if you are asking to be disrespected. Obviously this is not your intention, but often you get back what you put out there. Instead, say how you feel.
This relationship has gone beyond toxic for probably quite some time. It takes two people, it always does. You just need to move on. Stop apologizing. Maybe you want to think about separating for a while before you decide on divorce.
I'm a woman. I have to tell you I would have given my left arm to have had a husband like you. Your wife is being extremely cruel and mean. I’m glad you’re standing up for yourself, you are showing your son a good example.