'AITA for telling my old boss its unreasonable to expect me not to take a better paid job?' UPDATED

"AITA for telling my old boss I don't believe in loyalty and its unreasonable to expect me not to quit for a better paid job?"

Worked at my first job for 6 years. They trained me from ground zero on everything. I had a great boss (fought for my promotions, etc. - in those 6 years my salary doubled). Got an offer from a more prestigious company with better growth opportunities and double the salary We're talking substantial money (120k vs 250k).

I quit without thinking twice, and thought it was more respectful not to ask my old boss to use any of his political capital to get me a match (he couldn't, part of my new comp is stock in the new company and the salary is likely more than his pay). So I simply gave him my notice and explained my transition plan. Boss was truly devastated and very very angry.

We both stayed professional throughout the discussion but it got heated and he questioned my loyalty as if it's a character flaw. I said my view is I paid him and the company back with my hard work so we're at the very least even. Arguably they got a bargain deal because I could have jumped ship for more money 2 years ago. [EDIT: didn't say this last sentence out loud.]

Should I have handled any of this differently? My wife and some friends say I'm being rather cold and calculating. I should have shown more loyalty since the company gave me so much. I think it's disrespectful to assume I didn't give them anything less than enough in return - I know my worth and my contribution to the company's bottom line.

I've seen people walked out of the door after 2 decades with a "pink slip" and no one shed a tear the morning after. I respect my old boss, but what the hell is "loyalty to your job" supposed to even mean?

The internet did not hold back one bit.

FeyPiper wrote:

NTA. I do think that you could have handled it better, just because this could bite you if you need to get a reference or something happens with your new job. This was one of those 'you're right but you shouldn't say it' situations. At the same time, that's only a pragmatic consideration and from a manners standpoint you were fine. This is just old boomer mentality on your old boss' part.

OP responded:

Thank you, can I ask you a blunt question this being the Internet and all? Do you see a way to handle it better without being disingenuous? I come from a very blunt culture (Russia), and had pretty honest communication with my boss. When I am asked "Aren't you being disloyal?" my first instinct is to directly answer the question as asked.

I am fine if it's viewed as rude or cold in the eyes of an American, just curious if there's a middle ground I'm not thinking of that would allow me to stay true to my character without hurting feelings.

loudent2 wrote:

NTA "... I've seen people walked out of the door after 2 decades with a "pink slip ..." Yep, and your boss would have happily done this with you as well. You're talking about more than doubling your salary and you usually only get that type of bump when you switch employers.

My take is: If they wanted to keep you, they should have kept your salary competitive the whole time. I hope you did your due diligence though, more money doesn't make it a better place to work).

OP responded:

Thanks, in all fairness I know for a fact my old boss would have fought for me but agree if it was between him and me for example...I'm the one walking out the door. So I take the same approach - I'll put my family and our financial stability over him every day.

The opportunity was too good to pass on either way. I'm fortunate to mostly like my new team but I was offered a job with a FAANG of my profession so even if I need to be absolutely miserable here for two years and then jump ship it's worth it to pad the resume. Don't think I'll need to do the jump though.

Editors Note: FAANG stands for Facebook (now Meta Platforms), Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Google (now Alphabet).

upthecreekwthnocanoe wrote:

NTA, and I actually don’t think you were cold either. I have myself, and friends, acted more “grateful” when giving notice even when it’s totally untrue.

Perhaps on your part, as you describe a great boss, you could’ve added in how much you enjoyed working with him and will miss him/the team.. but equally that can be reserved for your leaving party and isn’t obligatory. The resignation meeting is usually just formality and businesslike (as you were).

As you said about pink slips - businesses tend to appreciate you when you’re more beneficial for them, but when you aren’t anymore it’s “don’t let the door bump you on the way out!”. So please don’t feel bad for being “calculating” - it’s not calculating for looking out for number one, when the business will do the same (nice manager or not). It’s pragmatic.

If you’d like to smooth things over with the old boss then invite him for a drink or something - he’ll have calmed down by now! If he hasn’t, then you tried and he’s behaving like a child. Just because you train someone doesn’t mean you own them. Hope the new job treats you well!

OP responded:

Thank you, lots of good points. I obviously was very direct about how much I appreciated his support and my team/company the past few years. I'll follow your advice about taking him out for a couple (socially distant) drinks.

I have no ill will towards him and hope we can rebuild at least a part of that relationship. As others have pointed out I could have handled certain aspects better so maybe I will get a chance to explain to him why I thought a clean cut was actually more respectful of him in this instance, even if I was wrong at the end of the day.

Mysidething wrote:

INFO: Did you just quit immediately or did you do the responsible and professional thing of putting in your two-week notice?

Because it can sometimes be pretty hard to find a suitable replacement for a highly trained position since you mentioned that they trained you from the ground up. Not giving your workplace a heads up about you leaving is just rude. My overall thought towards that is why make someone's life harder than it needs to be.

OP responded:

Of course I put a notice in, otherwise I’d have no question in my mind I’m being a d#$k. I do think it’s superfluous at best to hand it in tbh. They won’t be able to find a replacement in a few months at least.

And all my manuals were written ages ago. It’s more about my skill set and quality of work. Someone external coming in with a comparable skill set will ask for 170-200k at the very least.

Three weeks later, OP shared an update.

Probably a bit mundane, but some folks wanted an update. Took my old boss out for a beer to not burn that bridge as some of you have suggested (we sat in an outside pub garden for all the health-conscious commenters). Both had a great time. A couple months helped us cool off and getting together turned into a lot of reminiscing about the good old times together.

It also got us taking even more frankly about the things that would be viewed too political if we were still employed by the same company. I think I may have kept my mentor in my life after all. I apologized for perhaps ending things with my old job too abruptly. He said I couldn't have left at a worst time but then again there was no better or worse time to lose me, and to not sweat it.

Said he understands why I took the job, respects my reasoning for trying to protect him from using up the goodwill he built to save me as an employee/get me a match, and that giving him an earlier heads-up might have given him more time to find a replacement but didn't make a huge difference at the end of the day. It's all water under the bridge now.

The company already hired my replacement for about 25% more than I was paid (he didn't disclose the exact amount but that was the implication). He was blunt I wouldn't have gotten that much even with the offer I had. He also said his priorities in life are very different and he's happy where he is due to personal reasons and work-life perks, but that I need to seek what is the right answer for me.

Said he's be happy to work with me again if an opportunity presents itself (and I echoed that sentiment). Who knows, we may end up on the same team one way or another.

A few things I took away from the reddit discussion and our talk with the old boss:

Look out for yourself. Your company is not the same thing as your boss. There are structural obstacles to fight against, and because you're loyal to one person doesn't mean the company as a whole feels that way about you. I don't regret my choice.

Be good to people who were good to you and do right by them, if that doesn't go against #1. I wasn't a dick in my final interview and thanked my old boss profusely. It made a difference, but obviously he was still upset in the moment. Which leads me to #3..

People are people. They are imperfect and have lapses of judgement. If you see them as such, you will find it easier to move on and move up in your professional life.

Good luck you all, and thanks again for your input. Sometimes consulting reddit does put a good spin on a trivial story.

Edit: apologies but I’m going to struggle to respond to every award and comment individually. I’ve tried to answer all the questions though. Thanks for your support and good luck with your careers!

The comments kept coming.

Arbiter_of_Balance wrote:

Good ending for you! It's superfluous to say at this point, but you are NTA. Perhaps your ex-boss reconsidered burning his bridges with you--happy as he may be with his current situation, things change on a dime these days and he might end up with you as a boss some day.

I can't pinpoint when in history that loyalty became an entitlement for some people. Your ex boss certainly did not start his working career in the position or at the pay he now holds, so why did he expect you to do so?

Loyalty is earned and therefore two-way; it also needs to be continuously earned, just as superiors expect underlings to do. From your update, what made him mad is that he had to pay your replacement, new to the role, significantly more than he was paying you--which shows he & the company were taking advantage of your loyalty, not rewarding it with loyalty to you.

It was a bad time for him & the company for you to leave; no mention of how leaving would impact you--good or bad. (You already knew it would be good for you.) Funny how it's "just business" until you don't get what you feel you are entitled to from someone.

Frankly, anyone who negatively pulls the "loyalty" card that way shows how little they deserve any loyalty. Like you, I learned that from a toxic employer, but was on the short end of the lesson in that transaction.

When I finally managed to get a new position, I was offered right out of the gate at 65% more than my asking rate. My new employer was gently showing me how much I had been taken advantage of by the staff there, who were more concerned with reserving pay raises for themselves than being honest or fair.

Your trinity of rules are good ones to operate by, and you should never totally rely on others to do right. You can expect them to be fair and above board, but don't hang everything on it. No successful company I know has ever stayed open on such a business model.

OP responded:

I think it’s a lot more complicated than that honestly. My boss doesn’t care much for how much extra he had to pay a new guy. The salary bands are set up by HR and his budget is approved by his bosses boss.

He recognizes the market conditions pushed the company to increase the upper band to get anyone remotely qualified to fill my shoes. But it’s all a bit abstract, the cash is not coming out from his pocket if that makes sense?

Just pointing these things out because I cut out a bunch of fluff but he’s a good dude and while his job requires him to tend to corporate interests first I don’t have any hard feelings.

nlolsen8 wrote:

I'm glad to see it worked out for you and you can give practical advice for people who are looking to do the same. These days its easier to leverage your experience and get a higher wage with a new company than to stay where you're at.

It's unfortunate, but that's the case most times. My dad had been making the max he could at his company for well over a decade and had to wait for 1 specific person to retire to get a promotion/raise. If he had branched out earlier, he may have been able to get that exact same position a lot younger.

jostrons wrote:

So I missed your first post, but would have said the same thing. I Started a poorly paid job from someone I'd consider a mentor. Worked hard in 3 years doubled my salary, not much though. But got an offer for a 20% raise and had to take it. They told me I needed to come ASAP, but I said, listen, I can't just up an quit, I have to give my old boss time.

The partner in the firm who was in the meeting, said that is best thing you could say, I hope you treat us the same way if it ever comes to that. 4 years later it did come to that, I moved but gave 6 months notice. Still have a great relationship with Boss at company 1 and everyone at company 2.